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Why is WoW NOT Considered One of the Greats?

There are a lot of games that have been considered one of the greatest of all time. Ocarina of Time gets tossed out a lot. You know how Dunkey feels about Super Mario Bros. 2, and you can read my pitch for GTA V here: https://moot.us/lounges/16/boards/51/posts/158982
 
But where is WoW's place in the mix?
 
Aside from Call of Duty, I can't think of a single game that's been more of a phenomenon than World of Warcraft, and I'd argue that WoW is even bigger than CoD. I mean, how many video games have gotten a dedicated South Park episode?
 
Everybody knows what WoW is, or has at least heard the mysterious name "Warcraft." Ask yo momma, ask yo gran momma. They know. And when they say Warcraft they're not talking about Warcraft 3 (which let's be honest, really deserves its own place in the discussion). World of Warcraft was the explosion of online multiplayer play; a place where you could be who you want surrounded by other people being who they wanted to be. Warcraft was 300lb men covered in Dorito dust in their mother's basement shouting "Leeeeeeroyyyyyyyyy Jennkins" at the start of every raid. Warcraft was gaming. Warcraft is gaming. So why is it not talked about as one of the greatest games?
 
 
Know the phone number for Colombia Records? Me neither, but if we called them you know what they would say? Sales matter. Money talks. And World of Warcraft is the gaming industry's golden goose when it comes to revenue. This is a game that rakes in over a BILLION dollars a year and it's more than 14 years old. It's not just money either, WoW had a peak subscriber count of over 12 million players and some of the highest daily player counts in gaming history.
 
So, if everybody knows about WoW why is it not in the discussion of the GOAT's?
 
Clearly it's not because it's a bad game, otherwise it wouldn't still have 5 million active players after all these years. So why?
 
It seems to check all the boxes but even when I think about the greatest games of all time, WoW doesn't even come close for me. But maybe it should.
 
I was a big fan of Runescape back in the day, and still even play it on occasion now. Even though Runescape may have been considered the poor man's World of Warcraft, it was still a great game in its own right. And it didn't cost $15 every month and $50 up front. I played WoW, enjoyed it. But I loved Runescape. I put insane amounts of hours into that game and everybody that I knew was doing the same thing. The early days of Runescape were a moment in gaming unlike any other. Everybody was playing Runescape, and everybody cared.
 
I'm not trying to say that Runescape is a better game than WoW. But Runescape had the hearts of gamers, while WoW was busy making news headlines. Runescape was magical, and it stole some of the magic from WoW. Almost everyone remembers Runescape and has great memories with it. Do you?
 
Why do you think that World of Warcraft is not considered one of the greatest games of all time? Do you think it should be?
 
Let me know below!

General
LV.14Chief

Battle for Azeroth PvP Discussion

Hey guys Xaryu here and today I will be briefly discussing my thoughts about Battle for Azeroth PvP!
 
Things I am worried about:
1) PvP talent choices reduced to only four abilities. In BfA beta we can see that there will be 4 abilities we can choose. The first being trinket choice (Gladiator's Medallion, Relentless, or Adaptation), and the next three choices being one of Eleven or Twelve talents to choose from in each row. Having only four abilities is limiting, compared to having more in previous expansion, this is worrisome for the customization options in PvP.
2) Cool down abilities added to GCD (Global cool down). Currently, abilities like Icy veins, arcane power, etc. are placed off the GCD. However, in the expansion these abilities are being placed on GCD. This change leads me to believe the pace of PvP is going to be slowed down, also having me worried.
3) Some artifact abilities are being removed. Arcane mage artifact ability 'Mark of Aluneth' is being removed in the next expansion along with Sub rogue artifact ability 'Goremaws Bite'. The removal of these core abilities makes some classes feel lack luster, compared to the current expansion, Legion.
 
Things I am excited about:
1) New combinations of abilities with no tier system for PvP talent choices. With the removal of a tier system never before seen combinations of PvP talent choices are now going to be available, it will be interesting to see how the meta game evolves with a new way to build classes.
2) In general, a new meta game. In each expansion we see things shake up. New compositions are created, new strategies are formed, old players fall, new players rise. I am excited to see this take place with a new foundation in PvP.
3) Stat templates are being removed, kinda. Currently stat templates dictate 100% of your stats in any type of rated PvP or Battlegrounds, however, in the BfA some customization (unknown currently) is going to be in place allowing players to decide how much of each stat they desire. For example, while playing a Mage you could choose to have more haste to land more CC, or have more Mastery to burst harder. This is exciting because it adds customization back to PvP.
 
What do you guys think? Is there more to nervous about or excited about? What is your favorite new feature of the expansion?

General
LV.4Lurker

Battle for Azeroth PvP Mage Discussion

Mages in Battle for Azeroth seem to have gained some abilities and lost abilities, but overall, don't feel too incredibly different than Legion Mage specializations. Let's quickly unpack the changes so you guys can let me know what you think of what is to come for this class!
 
Abilities added: Remove Curse, Arcane Intellect
 
Abilities removed: Mark of Aluneth
 
Frost Mage -> Frost mages overall are still a cool down dependent class and from the looks of it are going to have 4 ways to actually burst; Icy veins, Frozen Orb, Ebonbolt, and Ray of Frost. This is a lot of different burst options which has me excited for the viability of Frost Mages but there consistent pressure is almost non-existent, and they still don't have abilities to allow for 1v1 or world pvp plays such as Deep Freeze, Blazing Speed, or Alter Time.
 
Arcane Mage -> Arcane mage is the spec that has me the most worried. The inner workings of the DPS rotation has changed quite a bit, Mark of Aluneth has been removed, and not much as been added back in it's place. Arcane explosion no longer does damage based on stack and Arcane missiles no longer does damage based on stack. Both of these changes will heavily cripple the current playstyle of arcane in PvP but might allow for new playstyles to rise.
 
Fire Mage -> Fire mage is the spec that seems the most similar to how it currently plays in Legion. Although the way you obtain your traits and talents come from different areas and tiers within your talents / honor talents the end results seems the same. Spam instant casts to generate pyroblasts to spam more instants into more pyros. The only problem I see with this spec is that pyroblast used to be such a high burst ability and fire doesn't really have that high burst option anymore (unless you go for Greater Pyro LUL) as they used to. Instead they have high consistent damage but not very much burst damage.
 
Let me know what you guys think of mages in BfA! Excited, not excited? Which spec will you be trying out?

PvP Discussion
LV.4Lurker
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